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Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues

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Peter-Paul Koch

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User since: September 12, 1999

Last login: September 03, 2005

Articles written: 8

In the First Era of browser history Mosaic and the other early browsers ruled. The Second Era was that of Netscape dominance. Microsoft's challenge to Netscape marked the beginning of the Third Era, the Heroic Age of the Browser Wars. Netscape's bleeding to death marked the start of the Fourth Era of Explorer dominance.

The recent news about Explorer shows that this Era has come to an end, too. We stand at the beginning of the Fifth Era of browser history. What will it bring?

This article gives an overview of recent events and tries to predict what will come. It tells the whole story, not just bits and pieces of it. Furthermore it answers some questions that other commentators ignore. Why doesn't Explorer Windows fix its CSS support? Who really killed Explorer Mac?

Throughout, the emphasis is on the story, not on the history. Therefore it focuses on the broad overview and leaves out many technical details. The article is meant as a tutorial on creating and spreading browser stories in terms our prospective audience will understand.

Before studying the new stories, a summary of the old ones.

What has gone before

After the smoke of the Browser Wars had driven away, Explorer reigned supreme. It had thoroughly trounced its rival and could rest on its laurels, reaping the rewards of forethoughtful investment. It rested and reaped for three years, growing fat and sluggish in the process.

In the pro-Microsoft view, Explorer took the role of Tragically Misunderstood Prophet. Somehow this role has never caught hold of popular imagination, though. Therefore the Windows version is generally seen as the Evil Usurper, and the Mac version as its Good Cousin that was crowned King of Mac by the machinations of the Usurper but turned out to be a pretty decent one.

Netscape 4 abdicated and took the role of Senile Dinosaur. It retired to its own little corner of browser land, where it still spends its days in happy oblivion. Its health is declining, but its health has been declining continually since its birth two Eras ago, so there's no need to worry.

The Mozilla Project inherited the role of Legitimate Exile, once to return to its rightful domains. The Project slowly plodded forward, while a solid kernel of supporters waited and hoped, waited and hoped, then waited and hoped a little bit more, after which the Project was said to be nearly ready. Mozilla 1.0 came, but by then the world had changed and didn't care quite as much as expected.

Opera was the Sympathetic Outsider. People liked it but didn't really expect it to make significant gains. Nonetheless it showed a slight but consistent growth.

The big surprise of the Fourth Era was Konqueror, which came unexpectedly and stunned the web development community by its general excellency. Its very existence proved that you don't need a huge Project to make a good browser. It didn't really get a role because it didn't fit into the overall scheme of things inherited from the Browser Wars. Besides it was confined to the Linux side of things.

That's how it was, one quiet Era long. But now something has happened in browser land. In fact, major events have started happening at a breathtaking pace.

The real story

"When will there be the next version of IE?"
"As part of the OS, IE will continue to evolve, but there will be no future standalone installations. IE6 SP1 is the final standalone installation".

"Why is this? the anti-trust?"
"Although this is off topic, I will answer briefly: Legacy OSes have reached their zenith with the addition of IE 6 SP1. Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS."

These fabled lines are hidden in a transcript of a talk show, a communication channel curious even for Microsoft's exacting standards. We learn Explorer 7 will be tied to the new Microsoft operating system and we are left to infer that it'll take its own sweet time before actually appearing on the scene.

Criticism immediately reached boiling point. Web developers bewailed the fact that end users who want Explorer 7 will have to buy the newest Windows version. In my opinion this critique, though correct in a literal sense, is both dishonest and ineffective.

Everyone seems to forget that end users don't care about Explorer 7, with or without a new OS. End users will upgrade to the new OS, or will not upgrade, for reasons that have nothing to do with browsers.

We web developers project our own desires and anger on the end users. Only we want the new browser. Only we will be forced to buy the newest Windows version to be able to check our sites in Explorer 7. But we don't admit that even to ourselves. That's dishonest.

For several reasons we may legitimately get angry at Microsoft in the name of the end user, but not in our own name. One reason is a strange kind of psychological block that I don't yet understand.

There is another reason, though, and a good one, too. To us, the story of the Tied Browser shows that Microsoft is Evil. That's our real story. Telling it in the name of the end user is indeed far more effective than telling it in our own name.

Fine, so we want to tell the "Microsoft is Evil" story once again for all the usual reasons. Right now, though, we're telling it in anger and bewilderment, endlessly babbling about web standards and shaking our fists at people in general just because it makes us feel good, not for any strategical purpose. That's ineffective.

Instead, we should take all the browser stories and merge them into one big, moving epic contained in a template our audience will easily understand. We should create effective propaganda or shut up.

A long wait to go

If Explorer 7 will be tied to the new OS, it will take at least another two years (and probably three) before it becomes available.

Now this is bad news for us web developers, especially since Microsoft, despite an urgent WaSP call, seems in no hurry to fix a few glaring CSS bugs in Explorer 6. Why not? For the sheer joy of being Mulishly Obstinate?

The famous talk show transcript says: "Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS." I tentatively translate this line as "We cannot improve IE any more" because it fits with an idea I've had in the back of my mind for two years now.

Why is Microsoft unwilling to fix the CSS bugs that everyone's been asking it to fix for ages? I think it's not unwilling but unable to do so. Explorer's code engine cannot be updated any more.

Sooner or later, browser makers run into the limitations of their programs. Their large libraries have a tendency to grow fat and hard to change, especially when they must incorporate functionalities that weren't foreseen when the original program was written.

This happened to Netscape 4, and it took a huge Project to break loose. Why shouldn't a code engine that has been up and running since 1997 suffer from the same symptoms? Why shouldn't it be technically impossible to implement the changes the WaSP requests?

The code engine really ought to be rewritten from scratch. That'll cost a lot of time and money, which, until now, the company was unwilling to spend. Now though, the strategical focus and budgetary flexibility the development of a new OS gives are added to the technical necessity to rewrite Explorer's code engine. Now the project can start.

I feel this theory neatly explains everything that has happened (or rather, not happened) to Explorer in the last few years, up to and including the revelations of the past months. It also tells us that we'll have a long wait to go even if Explorer 7 will not be tied to the new OS.

In the past Microsoft has proven itself willing to add some standards support to its browsers, and it might be precluded from adding more only by the limitations of the code engine itself, not by any inherent disinclination. In my opinion there's no reason to despair forever of Explorer's standards compatibility.

A word of warning to the wise: web standards are not part of the story we want to tell. They are too complicated for our audience. They should not be used at all in external communication.

A changing of roles

So for the next two to three years we're stuck with Explorer 6 and its incomplete CSS support. Even after Explorer 7 enters the market in whatever form, it will take another two to three years for it to replace Explorer 6.

So are we stuck with Explorer 6 for four to six years more!? Yup.
Really? Definitely.

Zeldman sees some good among the bad. He says: "'what IE6 is capable of' makes a far better platform for standards-based design than 'what Netscape 4 can do,' which was where many of us were trapped the last time the browser space froze." He is of course right (try any CSS in both browsers).

Nonetheless it won't feel right, and that feeling is the next ingredient for our story. As soon as we start being really angry at Explorer 6, we won't compare it to Netscape 4 but to its competitors: Safari, Mozilla and Opera. We want Explorer to support the standards like they do.

So we'll be as annoyed with Explorer 6 as we once were with Netscape 4. We won't feel like we're better off. We'll see Explorer as Netscape 4 reborn.

Therefore Explorer 6 will start changing roles shortly. Where once it was an Evil Usurper, it will now take on certain aspects of Netscape 4's role. It will mutate into a Senile Evil Dinosaur Usurper within the next year or so.

"Explorer is a Dinosaur" meets "Microsoft is Evil". Interesting development. Besides, we could try to port more of Netscape 4's traditional attributes to Explorer, for instance its well known tendency to lose any Browser War it's in.

The king is dead

Microsoft did not perform in the next act of the tragedy, it sent out the Messenger instead. Says the Messenger, on Friday the 13th: "Explorer Mac is dead. Stabbed in the back."

Now there are two ways of describing Explorer Mac's radically changed role. One is obviously Innocent Victim of Brutal Murder, an angle that can have its uses in the unfolding story.

Nonetheless, let's not be too quick to judge. This role is excellently suited for consumption outside web development circles, but we web developers have to take some additional points into account.

The most important point is that we'll have to get rid of Explorer Mac anyway.

Back in March 2000, I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it for the first time. Microsoft had succeeded in creating an excellent browser that supported CSS far better than its Windows cousin. In fact, it was a pioneer in many respects. It quickly became my favourite browser and stayed so for more than a year.

Recently, though, I detected unmistakable signs of old age. It shows more and more small but annoying CSS bugs. Even worse, its W3C DOM implementation turns out not to support moderately complex scripts, even though theory says it should. It doesn't throw errors, it just crashes. After I'd confirmed and reconfirmed these crashes, I concluded that Explorer Mac has survived its usefulness and will become a serious liability to W3C DOM scripting.

I said my farewells. So long, and thanks for all the CSS.

Since I must work around Explorer Mac for the rest of its existence, I hope it will disappear with reasonable speed. Of course it won't. It'll take at least a year before it starts disappearing in earnest and another year or two before it's been reduced to a marginal role. During that time I'm going to <sigh /> browser detect it away from my advanced scripts.

This story of the aging browser is not for general consumption. Talking about Explorer Mac's technical problems would erode its role as Innocent Victim. The story is part of Explorer Mac's other role, though.

Long live the king

If we really get down to it, who killed Explorer Mac? Safari did.

When Apple proudly presented its very own Safari browser in January 2003, everybody understood the obvious results of this move. Oddly, now that the results start being visible people seem to have forgotten about the whole affair.

Safari will be installed on every new Mac computer and any buyer of a new Mac will automatically use it as his default browser, unless he consciously decides otherwise. This is certain to give Safari market dominance on Mac in the long term.

The development of Explorer Mac costs a lot of money. It doesn't serve a strategical purpose any more since there's no chance to beat Safari. Microsoft's decision to discontinue it is comprehensible, even though the actual process of discontinuation seems to have been lacking in delicacy.

Of course, back in the Browser Wars it was Microsoft that invented the strategy that now allows Safari to Throw Off the Yoke of the Usurper. This gives the whole event an element of Poetic Justice and makes it excellent storytelling material. All the stranger that it's being left out of the discussion altogether.

Besides, from a technical point of view the succession of Explorer Mac by Safari is good. Let's compare Explorer Windows to Explorer Mac and to Safari.

  • Explorer Mac has more advanced CSS support while Explorer Windows has more advanced W3C DOM support. So the honours are roughly even.
  • Safari also has more advanced CSS support than Explorer Windows. Besides, it lacks only a few W3C DOM functionalities that Explorer Windows does support. Finally, it is still in development while its rival is anything but. Safari shows every promise of becoming a far better browser than Explorer 6.

So a year from now we can code sites that, with all due respect to graceful degradation, will work W3C DOM miracles on any platform, but will look better on Mac.

We can even show the difference: "Look, here's the site on Windows, and here it is on Mac. You see?" This allows us to make our point without mentioning all the tricky bits about browser compatibility and standards support. That's good, since these bits tend to confuse people ("what's a browser, anyway?").

This strategy might give Apple a little support in its own battle with Microsoft. I feel we owe it something for giving us Safari and for being very open for suggestions from the web development community. In the long run such exchanges of gallantry might lead to an alliance.

Since the succession is a good thing for us web developers, I propose another role for Explorer Mac: that of Royal Sacrifice. The king must die so that the land may live.

The old king, once great and mighty but now becoming somewhat stiff of leg, is sacrificed by the new king, who's young and strong and shows plenty of promise to withstand the Usurper. This allows the old king to go out in a blaze of glory and the land to retain its fruitfulness. It's an occasion for mourning, but also for new hope.

Will the Royal Sacrifice be accepted? Only with the support of the Mac nobility can Safari truly become King. Therefore I hope prominent Mac lovers will recognize sacrifice and succession as legitimate and will throw the full force of their coding abilities and opinion leadership behind the new king.

Incidentally, this would be the first orderly succession of one king by another in the entire history of browser land. It's high time we devise a proper protocol for royal succession. Until now it's been a bloody mess.

Now that's a story worth telling, but only to a Mac audience. For general purposes Explorer Mac remains the Innocent Victim and Safari the browser that Throws Off the Yoke.

A course of action

So a new King of Mac has arisen. On Windows, though, the Senile Evil Dinosaur Usurper still rules. It must go.

The lack of advanced CSS support and a general uneasiness about Microsoft's domineering position gives us the motive. The four to six years time lag before Explorer 7 arrives in strength gives us the opportunity. But what about the means?

Many web developers want to convince end users to install another browser instead of Explorer by reverently reciting the entire corpus of web standards. Some vaguely assume end users will eventually come to see the light by themselves.

Unfortunately these strategies won't work. End users are not interested in browsers, or in web standards. Most of them aren't sure what a browser is and don't recognize a web standard even when it's being blatantly disregarded. Besides, they don't want to install anything because installing things is a technical job and they aren't technical people.

The solution to this apparent dilemma is to convince other people to convince the end users for us. That's a tough job, but not a totally impossible one.

What people? I'm thinking of two main groups:

  1. People who install browsers for other people, for instance system administrators or ISP's.
  2. The mass media (however you want to define them).

As to the first group, it is largely concerned with security. Since I don't know anything about security I hope that someone who's versed in these matters will give us a good explanation, or propose a strategy.

Influencing the mass media can just barely be done, I think, though the result is anything but certain. Even if our strategy works perfectly, the stories in the media will influence only a minority of end users, and only at the moment they buy a new computer.

If it helps so little, why embark on this course of action at all? Becasue it's the only thing we can do. It's either try this or continue shaking our fists at people and accomplishing absolutely nothing.

Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues

How do we influence the mass media? By telling a moving story of valiant honour and chilling evil based on the highly succesful "Browser Wars" series. Media might run our story occasionally because their audience vaguely remembers the first part of the series.

The heroic saga of Third Era history is the the last browser market report anyone has ever read. Therefore the story we're creating should be its logical sequel. It should use the Browser Wars as a frame of reference, and not later, more technical developments.

Keep it simple. No web standards, please. We'd lose our audience faster than we could say "browser incompatibility".

With all this in mind, let's draft a press release:

"
Having won the Browser Wars, Microsoft's Internet Explorer ruled the browser market for three years. However, recent events show that its rule is coming to an end.

[In fact they don't show anything of that kind, but let's skilfully pretend they do]

Microsoft is Brought to Poetic Justice

Recently, Microsoft lost the Apple Macintosh market at one stroke. Apple's own Safari browser will be installed on any new Mac computer and will thus replace Microsoft's IE within the next year. This is the very strategy the Redmond Giant won the Browser Wars with.

In reaction, Microsoft brutally terminated its Macintosh version of Internet Explorer, indicating that it sees no chance of regaining the Mac market.

[Remember to give Explorer Mac its correct role. Mac audience: Royal Sacrifice. General audience: Innocent Victim]

Microsoft is Evil

The plans of the software giant show that a new version of Explorer on Windows will be released only in 2005 and will be tied hand and foot to Microsoft's new OS instead of being generally available for downloading.

Therefore end users are stuck with Explorer 6 for the next few years and have to spend a lot of money to upgrade their browser afterwards.

[Sure, I said time and again that end users don't care about browsers, but this is propaganda we're writing]

Explorer is a Dinosaur

Netscape 4's code engine was bad and could not be updated. It held back the further development of the WWW because it could not support exciting new technologies. This was one of the reasons it lost the Browser Wars.

Web developers are increasingly of the opinion that history will repeat itself. Contrary to all other Web browsers, Explorer hasn't been updated since the Browser Wars. In fact, it may be impossible to update.

Explorer cannot support today's technology, or even yesterday's, because of the limitations of its code engine. So it moves towards the position Netscape 4 once held: the most serious liability in Web design and a prospective loser.

[A nice bit of attribute transfer, that last sentence. The "prospective loser" is Netscape 4, so we don't lie, but our readers will project it on Explorer]

Viable Alternative

Fortunately, there is a viable alternative...
"

But here we break off in mid-sentence and confusion.

A role in search of an actor

Currently, the next sentence runs "Fortunately, there are viable alternatives in browsers like Safari, Mozilla and Opera."

That sentence doesn't work. It is too complicated and it doesn't fit the template of the Browser Wars series.

The Browser Wars are rememberd because of the easily grasped, bipolar nature of the story. There was Explorer, there was Netscape, and they were locked in Eternal Struggle. This kept the story simple and reminded people of other bipolar struggles with Good vs. Evil overtones in recent world history.

This powerful concept will work for us, if we satisfy its needs. The sequel we're writing needs one browser as the Usurper's opponent, one browser to play the role of Viable Alternative. Not three.

Safari cannot be the Viable Alternative because it's not a Windows browser. Then who shall we cast for the role? The Legitimate Exile or the Sympathetic Outsider?

The Project in trouble

The Mozilla Project is in serious trouble. It has been ready for prime time for over a year now, but except for an increasingly meaningless string of new releases nothing seems to happen.

Recently it performed a curious sketch that reveals the roots of its trouble. The Project announced that it was in the process of changing the names of all its products. Or, well, maybe just some of its products, and in any case some names turn out to be copyrighted so they have to be changed all over again. Besides, Mozilla itself will be renamed in the near future, oh no, wait a minute, it won't.

In translation, this means the Project has lost its role and is frantically groping for a new one. It used to be the Legitimate Exile, gathering strength in the shadows while waiting for the Ally Of Legitimacy to raise the flag of rebellion.

To AOL the Project has always been a bargaining chip in its negotiations with Microsoft. Recently it spent the chip when it struck a deal. AOL got some pocket change and the right to use Explorer for the proverbial seven years of servitude. In return, it completely bound itself to Microsoft's emerging strategy.

This leaves the Project without powerful support. Even worse, its traditional role of Legitimate Exile is eroding rapidly. The wait simply took too long. Except for a small kernel of die-hard supporters people lost interest, especially when Mozilla 1.0 was released but the Legitimate Exile only showed interest in technical intricacies, not in returning to its rightful place.

Its self-respect hit an all time low when Apple's Safari browser turned out to use not venerable Mozilla but upstart Konqueror as its code engine because of its small size. You can call Mozilla a lot of things, but not small.

Mozilla should lose weight and change roles. Viable Alternative is a perfect fit. Mozilla is technically more than adequate and it descends from a long line of kings.

The Project needs to get its act together, though. No more rehearsing for the Navel Gazing Split Personality Idiot Savant role. No more antique cars stuffed with vague X-technologies nobody understands anyway. And no, not even one web standard. The Project should put Mozilla on a strict diet and star it as the Viable Alternative to the Senile Evil Dinosaur Usurper in the epic multimedial co-production "Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues".

If the Project does so, it has a future. If it doesn't, it will sink further into obscurity and silly names.

Three is a crowd

Contrary to the Project's, Opera's problems are not of its own making. Its marketing has always been to the point and effective. It can keep up with the changing times, too. Opera 7 has implemented the reflowing of pages and thus support for the W3C DOM.

Without this crucial step it would be out of the race already. Nonetheless its position remains uncertain. It is seriously affected by the changing roles throughout browser land.

During the Browser Wars Opera was the Sympathetic Outsider. This is quite an achievement. It performed in a drama written for two players, not three, and kept itself in the public eye despite not being a part of the bipolar story structure. The price it had to pay was playing the Harmless Cutie instead of a serious competitor.

Unfortunately for Opera, though, the Sympathetic Outsider role seems to have been scratched from the script.

In Part I, three was already a crowd. Four actors is certainly too much, and currently Opera would be the fourth actor, not the third one. The third actor is Safari. "There's Explorer and Mozilla locked in Eternal Struggle. There's Safari, which has already Thrown Off the Usurper's yoke. Oh yes, and there's Opera." Won't work.

Opera would be a presentable Viable Alternative, but it is distinctly second choice after Mozilla, both technically and in purity of descent. It will be allowed to play the role only if the Project opts for Idiot Savant.

The future looks distinctly bleak for Opera. Nonetheless, it has time and again shown its resourcefulness and flexibility. Despite all prophecies of doom it still shows no signs of retiring from the race. It may survive, even though it has to be content with being backup Viable Alternative.

To be continued

That's where we stand now. Our prospective Viable Alternative is wasting time in wholesale lots. We cannot finish our press release. We cannot start influencing the mass media yet.

Fortunately we still have plenty of time, thanks to Microsoft's Snail Pace™. To make our deadline we should have a Viable Alternative ready by the end of this year, and use 2004 for spreading the story to a general audience. That's a manageable time frame.

While waiting, remember the fundamental laws of "Browser Wars II":

  1. Stick to the template. The Browser Wars series is a Good vs. Evil struggle between exactly two browsers. Keep the story simple.
  2. End users don't care about browsers. That's the main problem. Feel free to tell the horrid story of the Tied Browser in the name of the end user, but remember it is propaganda, not truth.
  3. No web standards. Ever. They're for our own internal use, not for external communication.

Now let the Saga Continue.

Peter-Paul Koch is a freelance browser expert and JavaScript guru living in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. He has been an Internet professional only since 1998, so he's definitely second generation.

His personal site is www.quirksmode.org. It includes the W3C DOM Compatibility Tables, currently the best resource on the Internet for this subject. Because of this research, he has been asked to co-edited chapters 17 to 19 of Flanagan's "JavaScript, the Definitive Guide", O'Reilly, 4th edition.

He is an administrator of the WDF-DOM mailing list, that counts most international JavaScript gurus among its members.

He has written the "Keep it Simple" column on Digital Web Magazine, as well as articles on A List Apart, Apple Developer Connection, and O'Reilly's Web Dev Center, in addition to Evolt.

Opera

Submitted by sehryan on July 11, 2003 - 04:08.

Opera is only the forth browser if you put Windows and Mac together. As it as always been, the browser wars seemed to be focused on the windows platform, not split between windows and mac. Why? Because 90% of home desktops are windows. So Mac, as it always has been, whether it deserved it or not, is relagated to a lesser role. Mac was MacIE, and now it is Safari. And because Safari is a Mac only browser, from the windows world, there are only three browsers: IE, mozilla, Opera. With IE done and mozilla floundering a bit, Opera has a chance to gain a share. But it has to act now, while mozilla is stuck deciding what it wants to be when it grows up. As soon as that decision is made, the window will close, as mozilla was and still is the heir apparent to battle IE. If Opera doesn't get its marketing moving and get people to know about it before mozilla gets out of its funk, they will lose the chance to be the next contender for the crown.

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Standards

Submitted by joh6nn on July 11, 2003 - 06:17.

I think that if we just tell people that they want Web Standards, they'll want them. People know that 2 Ghz is more than 1Ghz, so they want the 2 Ghz, and that they want more memory, because more is always better. I think if we just tell them that Web Standards are better, then that would be fine. That's how people got to the internet in the first place. They became convinced they wanted it. Most people still don't even really understand what it is, but they want it. I think just saying "this is good, and what you want" is much simpler, and much more likely to work, than to try and relate some long winded fairytale about the king of browser land.

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My 2 cents

Submitted by Xanadu on July 11, 2003 - 12:50.

I came to the same core conclusions myself recently about IE. I concluded that IE7 would have to be a rewrite. Now if so, the project is surely underway now. But 2005 is not that far off - can they realistically make a browser as good as IE6 in that time? Perhaps it wil be pretty basic to start with, but gradually surpass IE6 in ways we cannot yet imagine. (No doubt involving new Microsoft-only code as happened before.)

I also came up with a neat solution. Microsoft could simply use Gecko! Since it's an open source rendering engine as used by Mozilla and Netscape, they would be using a ready-made standards-enabled product. No need to write another browser from scratch. (Sadly I really don't see this ever happening. Microsoft like to do their own thing. Though they also like to buy up smaller competitors. Hey - maybe they will buy up the Mozilla Project!)

I disagree that Mozilla is struggling and in need of a goal. It is easily the most 'complete' browser in my eyes. The natural choice for Successor. The name changes were down to copyright demands, yet they have already chosen to do what the article above suggests, by slimming down to just the core browser. It's now called Firebird. This alone then is the clear winner-to-be in the story.

Opera 7 also continues to strive. But many users (and IT departments) don't like it because the free version gives you adverts. And they do not want to pay for something they can download freely from other browser companies. But Opera is certainly capable and offers some unique features. Successor's Assistant then.

Let's also remember that IE7 is a "one-platform-only" (Windows Longhorn) program. Laughable nowadays when Opera and Mozilla can be found on multiple platforms, including Mac and Linux!

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what?

Submitted by jkd on July 11, 2003 - 13:43.

A common assumption, one that Mr. Koch falls prey to, is that end users aren't interested in a browser. On the contrary, from personal experience, end users are very interested in browsers. Being frustrated by pop-up windows or desiring intuitive window interfaces (such as tabs) are not common only to "geeks", but rather the entire population of online surfers. Take someone you feel doesn't care about what web browser they use, sit them down in front of Mozilla or Safari or any browser with tabbed browsing and popup blocking, briefly take a few minutes to explain to them how to use the features, and they will not look back. I recently demonstrated Mozilla Firebird in front of a group of people one could argue fits the description of "end users", and the very first question out of every single one was, "Where can I download this?"

True; end users don't care about accessibility, standards-support, radical new technologies, nor random acronyms; however they care very much about their surfing experience and about ways that can improve upon it. Every browser but Win/IE has developed (or copied) advancements in browser features or UI, and users will take notice more and more as Internet Explorer continues to stagnate.

Exactly what point does this commentary establish? It says the Mozilla project is floundering, and that Opera's future remains bleak. However, more people than ever are migrating to Gecko-based browsers, and Opera has a niche following which will at least keep it afloat for a good while longer (at least until it can appeal to the end-user as much as Mozilla Firebird, Camino, Safari, or Internet Explorer have). This commentary has merely served to (arguably) incorrectly and ambiguously sum up a situation which all of us already know all to well, and disguises that fact by adding an "epic" allure to it.

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What Browser Wars?

Submitted by brothercake on July 11, 2003 - 15:01.

There was a time when I would have agreed with this ... but no man, we have to grow up, move on from this "browser war" mentality.

We all of us know that there are several excellent browsers available today. I believe we can help by 'selling' those alternatives to ordinary users, through whatever channels we come into contact with them.

What we should not be doing is dressing the whole thing up with some kind of mythological significance, when all it really is is the history of browser vendors' marketing efforts.

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hmmm

Submitted by Xanadu on July 12, 2003 - 11:58.

Perhaps the notion of an individual browser is old hat anyway. We have XML, WML, the web on a growing number of devices and platforms. Instead of catering for all of them, maybe we should be using separate programs as best fit the device? Mobile users don't need all the bells and whistles of a desktop PC.

Microsoft's idea is to further blend their browser into the operating system (Windows) which is curious because they have already done that a long time ago with Explorer 6. Open the file manager to view your hard drive and it's the same engine. You can customize folders in HTML and even turn the desktop into a web page. The way you view emails in Outlook Express also uses the Tasmin rendering engine as it needs to display web content in emails..

To create the next version of Windows, well it's a totally new shell. So naturally it will need a totally new browser/file manager/email viewer. One good thing is that in the new Windows version, all windows are enlargable whilst scaling their contents. So a window showing a page of text and graphics is enlarged - so is the text and the graphics. All of it super smooth, as they're using the graphics card completely this time. I immediately realised that this means web page text in Explorer set with pixels can now be enlarged! It will act like Opera in also enlarging the graphics so the layout isn't changed. So that's one positive step.

But in the meantime, I fail to see why they can't upgrade IE6 a bit more. How hard is it to add the < abbr > tag? They could then claim they were implementing more standards. Whereas the reality is they will be seen as uncaring for web users, unlike Mozilla and Opera who are marching on and listening to their users. I'm impressed by the way you can file bugs for these two browsers. You get feedback directly as they tackle them (at least that's how it works for Mozilla). Then a new version comes out with the bug either fixed or marked for fixing soon. Brilliant! How can Microsoft ever compare to that? They do what they want, when they want, behind closed doors. Sure the end product is often cool. But I fear that when IE7 does emerge, it will be full of bugs and broken standards. I hope I'm wrong.

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Don't underestimate the power of sagas!

Submitted by ppk on July 14, 2003 - 03:30.

jkd:
and disguises that fact by adding an "epic" allure to it.

brothercake:
What we should not be doing is dressing the whole thing up with some kind of mythological significance, when all it really is is the history of browser vendors' marketing efforts.

Don't underestimate the power of sagas! Brothercake is right, the saga I'm telling is all about marketing. But marketing (I prefer propaganda) is largely mythology anyway, and most ancient heroic sagas are meant as propaganda for the heroes that perform in them or for their descendants. The sagas usually prove that a certain family has held certain lands for a long time. I see a clear parallel to the current browser market situation.

This archetypical function of sagas is still very much alive and kicking, although actors and actions have a different names nowadays. I feel we should use it.

Compare all these articles about browsers I found with a simple Google search for "Browser Wars". Journalist and web developers take the Browser Wars as their starting point for describing new developments in the browser market.
You may deplore this fact if you like, but please don't deny its existence or the use we could make of it.

brothercake:
I believe we can help by 'selling' those alternatives to ordinary users, through whatever channels we come into contact with them.

Exactly my point. However, the frame of reference of our sales story must be the Browser Wars because that's all the average end user knows of the browser market.

joh6nn:
I think that if we just tell people that they want Web Standards, they'll want them.

I doubt it, but even if you're right it would take too long. First make sure everyone wants standards, than explain that they'll have to ditch IE6 to get the standards.

jkd:
A common assumption, one that Mr. Koch falls prey to, is that end users aren't interested in a browser. On the contrary, from personal experience, end users are very interested in browsers.

If you talk to every single end user personally, yes, then you're right. However, it's quite impossible to do that. That means most end users will continue not to care a bit about browsers. We must find methods of mass communication.

jkd:
This commentary has merely served to (arguably) incorrectly and ambiguously sum up a situation which all of us already know all to well,

No, I disagree. Sure, every element of this article, with the single exception of IE Windows' code engine being stuck, has been published somewhere else. But I found no single article that treats all these browser events instead of just one or two of them. Of course, if you do know about such an article, please post the URL.

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*Internet* Explorer

Submitted by marktranchant on July 14, 2003 - 06:47.

Explorer is the filesystem and network browser. The WWW browser under discussion is Internet Explorer. If you must abbreviate it, use IE.

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Mozilla Firebird

Submitted by PyromanFO on July 14, 2003 - 06:48.

You seem to contradict yourself on the Mozilla bit. You state that Mozilla needs to slim down, find it's focus and get faster. Yet you talk about Mozilla changing names like it's a sign that it has lost it's focus. The whole reason it changed names was to start using the smaller, faster, more focued "Phoenix" project, which changed it's name to "Mozilla Firebird" when it was decided that Phoenix and it's offshoot Mail client, Thunderbird, would become the Mozilla suite after 1.4. So Mozilla didn't change names because it lost focus, it changed names to do precisely what you want it to do. Mozilla Firebird and Mozilla Thunderbird are new brand names that slim down and are focused on becoming the fastest, smallest gecko based browser and mail client out there. I know you werent focusing on technicalities, but that seemed like it was pretty far from the truth on the name bit.

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More comments for your reading pleasure

Submitted by ppk on July 14, 2003 - 07:49.

More comments on Slashdot. Unfortunately most of these comments are not very interesting. There's a gem or two hidden in there, though.

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How about...

Submitted by trian on July 14, 2003 - 08:11.

...designing sites that work in anything other than IE to begin with? I don't mean it for you guys in particular, but if you (web designers) don't promote this among yourselves and choose to play safe, how is it going to start? <sigh />

Being a linux user, I find I can't "enjoy the user experience" offered by most corporate sites, which is extremely aggravating. I keep a windows install just to be able to visit most of the corporate web!

Or a simpler one: how about just putting a little logo in every site you guys make, saying "support standardsfor better user experience" or something similar.

PS. I got to this story from slashdot.

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Re: Mozilla Firebird

Submitted by ppk on July 14, 2003 - 08:17.

So Mozilla didn't change names because it lost focus, it changed names to do precisely what you want it to do.

Sorry, but that's not true. You see a cause and effect where I see two distinct events:

  1. Mozilla gets faster
  2. Mozilla changes names once again

I applaud the first and deplore the second. But they have nothing to do with each other. Mozilla could have changed names without becoming faster, or it could have become faster without changing names. One does not follow from the other.

My point remains that all this renaming stuff is too complicated for the end user and hinders effective propaganda, whether Mozilla becomes faster or not.

In fact, it even causes web developers to get confused about the names and the speed.

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Safari killed IE?

Submitted by bjelkeman on July 14, 2003 - 08:24.

To say that Safari killed IE for the Mac is only to go with Microsoft's spin on the situation. The Macintosh IE team was pulled off the IE development quite early after the release of IE 5. They were moved on to other more "important" projects within MS pretty quickly. IE for Mac has been in maintenance mode since 2000 or so. There was never going to be an IE 6.0 for the Mac, they just waited for a good excuse to tell the Mac users this. Apple clearly understood this and decided to develop Safari, as they realised that they otherwise would not have even one native UI browser on the Mac OS X platform pretty soon.

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But Users Will Install Software

Submitted by zanerock on July 14, 2003 - 09:40.

The idea that users won't install a new browser is true only because of the way the option has traditionally been presented. If you say something like "We recommend...," or "Site best viewed with..." then you can count on the user doing nothing because they will (rigthly so) always choose the easiest thing... which is not to install anything.

Yet, if we look the desktop space, we see that users do (or both willing and capable) of installing all sorts of software. The fault is our own for not presenting what is really an application (be it web based or not) as such. Users understand that to use an application, they have to install something. So, when you do the browser detect, don't mention browsers or sites at all. Instead, get the user thinking about applications with something like:

To use this application, you must install this software....

Follow this up with step by step instructions, and at the end put an icon on their desktop. You and I know that it "just" opens the browser to a web site, but the icon makes all the difference to the user. That is what defines an application for the user, and once you've made an application, then the user is willing to do what they must to use it.

A veryl slightly expanded version of this argument can be found here.

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One missed point regarding Opera

Submitted by jarmstrong on July 14, 2003 - 10:08.

One thing I thought that was missed was Opera's powerbase. Your absolutely right on the desktop front, it is difficult to see how Opera can become dominant. But, Opera itself is already dominant, on smartphones. With microsoft still flaining around trying to figure out how to get Windows onto phones, and the phone manufacturer's clearly uninterested in Microsoft's efforts in this category, Symbian's operating system has the marketshare and looks set to expand further and further. What browser is dominant on that platform? Yes, Opera is king. Perhaps Opera sees that as a way of approaching the desktop market, by building reliance and awareness via a different platform, one which has the potential to outnumber the desktop/laptop browser marketshare. Alternatively, Opera itself may regard the desktop as a simple nice revenue stream only.

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What is needed to win

Submitted by RScullion on July 14, 2003 - 10:13.

The author mentions several times that MS won the browser war because they could bundle it with their operating system. Unfortunately he assumes that it was the mass exposure that this gave the program which lead to the victory. While this may have some impact the real reason was INTEGRATION. As explorer advanced it became very similar to Netscape in use and appearance, however it started to load significantly quicker. It also appeared when web content was accessed in ways other than the traditional 'open a browser and type in a URL' method. One thing that users DON'T want is multiple browsers. That leads to split favourites (bookmarks) and inevitable chasing around trying to find the page you were after (even with programs that attempt to keep the two the same). I can't speak for Safari but look at Konqueror. It came integrated with Linux, loaded very quickly, and was always what appeared, even when jumping to the web from the file system. (sound familiar). For a browser to replace IE it needs to load almost immediately (and hence be lightweight so the users don't mind having it preload in the background at startup) and, as importantly, it must give you the option of never seeing IE again (unless you choose to uninstall it). Of course, this last point provides the problem. In order to never see explorer again a windows explorer replacement is also required. This must be in every way at least as good as the MS one and at least as compatible so that you aren't compromising. That's the real challenge.

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How About One Dimensional Scale?

Submitted by Pelam on July 14, 2003 - 10:13.

Perhaps the problem with people and web standards is that there are so many confusing standards...

However, understanding one dimensional scales is easy. Somebody should group all the details of the standards into arbitrary, but convenient levels. The scale should have a catchy name and it should be obvious that bigger is Better.

Then we could say eg.:"You should install Mozilla or Opera since they are on level IV and your current software is only on level II."

Perhaps a small gauge or something ("Stand by while testing your browser's ability!") on welcome pages of well known site. A gauge stuck on level III while the guy next door gets VI could inspire downloads.

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Safari only Mac????

Submitted by EarlAllen on July 14, 2003 - 10:42.

I'd like to suggest that Safari may not be Mac-limited at some indefinite time in the future.

Apple has plenty of Windows experience with QuickTime, and will soon have iTunes on Windows. Porting a Linux/xBSD version of Safari, because it has roots in Konquerer and FreeBSD (MacOS X) should be fairly easy. Substantiated rumors of x86 versions of MacOS X seem well-grounded. Once you have x86 code, making a Windows version should also be relatively easy. But there's a lot of speculation in the "should" in that last sentence.

The real question is whether Apple will chance further anger from the Redmond Leviathan.

We may require the patience of Job(s).

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What about the Linux world?

Submitted by poboxbrian on July 14, 2003 - 11:16.

Though hardly of note now (and possibly not of too much note later), Linux is also going through a browser war that's very different than the rest of the world. In this world, Mozilla and Opera reign supreme w/ Konqueror riding the caboose. In this arena one tries to perform as well as the rest of the world w/o making serious design modifications. The overall shape of the machine must stay the same even if the core engine is very different. To this end, Mozilla in recent months has taken the lead. Opera's jerky in the things it supports and two releases ago even caused the font server to crash creating a great deal of confusion system wide. Mozilla, while mostly trying to implement what Opera originated, has done many of the core items better and smoother, but this wasn't always the case. Opera ruled for a very long time (in browser terms) and has just now gotten this serious competition. This war may be the more significant of the wars that are currently going on for these two companies are designing a product whose feature set and performance are not OS based. This type of module programming when done right allows a product to move between Windows, Mac, Linux, cell phones, tvs, video systems, etc. w/o a major functional hit. IE, on the other hand, has married itself to one OS. I know that my life over the past few years has moved further from the desktop and I want it to move much farther. I believe most people do. I would argue that people would like to do everything that they can do on their home computer from their cell phone and that's not going to happen w/ Blade. This brings me back to module browser design. One small, hardware-specific module change to a browser and it works on that device. That's the target. IE's aim is off for Windows XP 2005 is not going to run on a Gameboy. If this is true, IE will still have 92% of the desktop market, but people will be caring less about the desktop. A designer will then be developing for one of three markets, the desktop, the portable, and the organic-LCD. The big firms will get the latter, so we will just be competing for the first two of which the portable will have the larger residual income.

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IE Standards compliant?? doubtful

Submitted by fasaxc on July 14, 2003 - 11:16.

Simply put, the reason that IE isn't standards compliant is because MS don't want it to be - if it were they might have real competition from mozilla/opera etc. As it stands, many websites design for IE's inadequacies because it's the most popular - sure, mozilla might render the site precisely as the W3C require but if it were designed for IE then it might get trashed anyway... Time and time again MS hijack a standard (eg JavaScript), make an almost interoperable counterpart and use their overwhelming market share to force it into the mainsteam. There's no advantage for MS to be standards compliant while they still have market dominance and sites are still being designed for IE. Unfortunately the approach above of requiring a user to install a particular browser will not prevail either - consider the corporate environment, how long would it take for your admin to put mozilla in place on every system?

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Close but no cigar

Submitted by frisket on July 14, 2003 - 11:17.

I like the analysis but a couple of points seem to have wandered in the process.

Konqueror is terrible: hopeless CSS support, Javascript full of bugs, no XML, no XSLT, no antialiased fonts, the list is endless. But the team has done a wonderful in even getting this far, given that this is what IE was like but a few short years ago. It has the potential to be very very good, but there's a long way to go.

Mozilla suffers from hubris, like all budding geniuses. They spend they time running in ever-decreasing circles, adding little tweaks here and there, and they risk, like the Oozlum Bird, disappearing up their own orifice unless someone takes a strong hand to direct the project. Amid all this, they manage to come up with some really excellent features, and the best CSS support of many major browser (this is where I fail to grasp your problem: their CSS is way better than anything else I have seen). But printing still sucks, especially under Linux, where it won't print damn near anything except in Times, which is ludicrous. The bug resolution and feature addition is laughable: a year and more to "discuss" a feature I suggested which would take 5 mins to code and please thousands ended up being mutated into an unrecognizable request that everyone rightly turned down.

You're close, but keep going!

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The deal with mozilla

Submitted by bheerssen on July 14, 2003 - 11:21.

The mozilla team has said that Mozilla release 1.4 will be the last for the integrated application collectively labeled 'Mozilla'. That is why the name changes. Firebird (originally named Phoenix, alas) is the browser portion of the product. Thunderbird is the Mail/News portion. Chat is reportedly coming soon, and work is underway on Composer.

The recent changes at Mozilla.org are reflective of developer/user criticism (such as bloat and feature creep) and do much to address them. I think that as these seperate products mature, we'll see much more of them. Neither Thunderbird nor Firebird have yet to reach a 1.0 release, but they'll be much slicker products than their parent at it's 1.0 release.

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OK, it's nothing to do with standards...

Submitted by murphycoverdot on July 14, 2003 - 13:08.

Perhaps nobody actually said that IE is dead, but that's the impression that MS seems to be giving until 2005 (which may come in 2006 or even 2007!) But look what Wymea Bay (www.irider.com) has done with IE. Their iRider user interface looks quite brilliant to me, and I expect that others will be emulating them sooner or later, if they don't get lost in the noise.

I only hope that the Safari crew (and/or Opera, Mozilla, etc.) are not so wed to the NIH principle that they ignore clever work being done elsewhere.

Why do I bring this up? As jkd pointed out, users only care about standards when things don't work, but show them nice features, and much like crows and shiny bits, they want them. Or maybe that's me, cuz I know I want them, and I want them on Safari soon. Oh, yeah, my point was that even if MS doesn't do anything to improve their existing browser, that does NOT mean that no-one else will.

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3rd or 4th?!

Submitted by nineone on July 14, 2003 - 13:19.

Opera is second if you consider just x86 operating systems and third if you consider x86 and Apple OS's. Mozilla/Netscape doesnt deserve to be second. They are old, slow, and simply not the best. Opera is much better. Opera is everything that Mozilla/Netscape and Explorer are plus some, but everyone keeps rating them a second level option. Why?!

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Re: 3rd or 4th?!

Submitted by zanerock on July 14, 2003 - 14:10.

The problem with Opera is not it's implementation, but it's accessibility. Because Mozilla, Safari, and Konquerer are based on open engines, the communitiy itself can ensure standards compliance. Opera is operating on the open-closed model where they try to be free-platform friendly, but closed themselves. This will work for some companies, and works well enough for Opera, but it can never gain the support from the larger open source community that Mozilla and Konquerer have.

That's not to say that users can't get behind it, which usually pulls in the "pure" webbies (people that do graphics and HTML without caring a bit about any other software), but the people that actually work on the stuff, or more intimately with underlying frameworks and/or with other software will naturally appreciate the fact Mozilla and Konquerer (and thus the Safari engine) are not only free, but open.

It's not about as, the hackers used to believe, that you can "fix it yourself if you want," but in practice open systems are quicker to adopt, and do a better job of following standards simply because of the environment they exist. Opera tries to play to that crowd, but it can never really join the party.

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Opera's Market

Submitted by zanerock on July 14, 2003 - 14:16.

Continuing the above thought, one may postulate that Opera's market comes mainly from dissatisfied IE and Netscape users, or people that prefer it over Safari, etc. Essentually, pure users. The core market (though perhaps not the largest) for Mozilla and Konquerer has always been the software communitiy itself. All other browsers, including Opera, can't ever play to this crowd, so in that sense, it doesn't matter whether Opera has more boxes than Mozilla or Konquerer. Their real goal is to be the most standards compliant, and to play to people that care about that. Both engines have done well by getting picked up and integrated into other browsers that add usability featuress, but remembe that it's Gecko (Mozilla) that renders your NS 6+ window, and Konquerer is behind Safari. I believe that this model will triumph in the end.

Also, this points outh that when considering numbers for Mozilla, you have to add in all NS, and thus AOL browsers. For Konquerer, you really should throw Safari in on that too. I'm really just guessing, but I'd be suprised if that didn't put opera well into 4th place (IE, and then Mozilla/NS/AOL and Konquerer/Safari in second and third).

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selling standard

Submitted by vrov on July 14, 2003 - 18:12.

If we want users to care about web standards, we need a nice simple rating system that tells them how well their browser performs. A 'Webmark 2003' or 'BrowserBench 2005' type rating. We could just take a list if standards - HTML. XHTML, CSS 1, CSS 2, CSS 3, XSL, DOM, and so on, and give each browser a score or zero to one on each of them. If the user sees an article saying 'IE 6 gets a BrowserMark 2004 of 4.6, but Mozilla gets 5.2!', they will actually see that there is a real difference, and that it's worth upgrading. It's also push the browser coders into working to fix that last CSS bug or two.

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Mozilla

Submitted by chickenbird on July 14, 2003 - 19:22.

One poster suggested that Mozilla is floundering, and that it releases one meaningless update after another. This is not true, in my opinion. Mozilla is robust, and each release makes very important bug fixes while also adding truly useful functionality. The last suite version, 1.4, is the most accessibility-friendly, most CSS and XML compliant, all around best browser ever. Safari cannot touch Mozilla when it comes to CSS and XML standards support. I do not work for the Mozilla group, I merely admire them. My work requires a browser that has excellent CSS and XML support. Exlporer, as the article points out, has hardly any CSS support at all.

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mozilla

Submitted by dusoft on July 15, 2003 - 04:13.

I used to use Mozilla, but it was so slow. Starting too long, too slow generally. It seemed very robust, but very slow, too. Then I switched to Opera and it is really fast in comparison with Mozilla, also Mozilla is too slow with comparison with Explorer. Just look how long does it tak for Mozilla to open a new window!!! So, however I don't like banners in Opera, it's still much faster and convenient to use than other browsers.

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Mozilla's speed

Submitted by Xanadu on July 15, 2003 - 05:14.

I don't find Mozilla slow at all. It loads on bootup and opens new windows instantly. But then I'm on Windows XP with a Pentium4 1.7GHz processor at work and XP with an AMD Duron 800MHz at home. I used to use Windows 98 at work (and home) which ran on a Pentium2 350MHz and was fine. By contrast, Opera 7 was slow. I have heard though that Opera 6 is extremely fast on old machines. But when you upgrade to a 'decent' machine, there is little difference.

chozsun:
"I loathe Explorer for it's lack of speed and lack of features and yet mindless drones still use Explorer because they don't know any better. I loathe Mozilla for being slower than Explorer and lack of innovation and yet, geeks keep stuffing that damn browser down my throat."

IE isn't lacking in speed - it's a fast browser. It's built in to the system so it responds very quickly. Mozilla doesn't suffer from a lack of innovation. Geeks rightly realise it is packed with super features. Once you start using them you realise how IE is so bare without them. There are a lot of designer tools built in as well as features that the everyday surfer can make use of to speed and enhance their browsing experience (now I sound like a Microsoft advert).

Opera's big problem is advertising. Mozilla doesn't have it so why does Opera? I know people on forums who flatly refuse to use Opera because you get adverts in the free version. They actually see Opera as being "evil" for starting a dangerous trend. So Opera need to ditch the ads to grow.

Lastly, anyone wanting a comparison between the big three browsers showing how much CSS2 they can handle should take a look at this page I constructed:

CSS2 Test Suite Failures

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Mozilla not slow

Submitted by chickenbird on July 15, 2003 - 07:21.

dusoft, I have to disagree. Mozilla has never been slow for me, and I've used it on a variety of platforms with a variety of different processors and RAM.

Furthermore, all future releases from the Mozilla group will be really fast. This is because 1.4 was their last suite release. All future releases will be module releases, on the Camino/Phoenix model. Camino (Mac) and Phoenix aka Firebird (Windows, probably Linux) are basically just the browser part of Mozilla -- that is, they have no Mail/Newsgroups, and no Composer. They are therefore really fast because they aren't bogged down with extra code. People who want a browser suite that does everything (browse, email, HTML editing, etc.) will continue to be able to use Mozilla 1.4.x or Netscape 7.1, which are the newest, fastest suite versions. And people who want a really fast browser without the Mail/Composer baggage get Camino/Phoenix/Firebird. I imagine they'll also release a stand-alone Mail/Newsgroups module for people who want a nice IMAP/POP-capable mail client with the interface and features they've come to love from Mozilla/Netscape. So there will be lots of options.

I've used Camino since 0.5 (it is not up to 0.7) and I love it. It is the fastest browser I've ever used (even faster than Safari), and has excellent CSS/XML support. In fact, it is nearly as good at CSS/XML as Mozilla 1.4. It is based on the Mozilla 1.3 codebase, I think, so it is a little bit behind the game, but not a lot, and it will soon catch up to the 1.4 codebase and then improve upon it (as I have indicated in the previous paragraph). This is all based on stuff I've read at mozilla.org, slashdot.org, and elsewhere.

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Two valid points of criticism

Submitted by ppk on July 15, 2003 - 11:55.

One thing I thought that was missed was Opera's powerbase. Your absolutely right on the desktop front, it is difficult to see how Opera can become dominant. But, Opera itself is already dominant, on smartphones. Symbian's operating system has the marketshare and looks set to expand further and further. What browser is dominant on that platform? Yes, Opera is king.

Yes, I think you're correct. I concentrated on Windows and Mac in the article (or it would have grown and grown and grown), but I should have mentioned this. Opera is a good candidate for King of PDA.

Another point of criticism I read states that Microsoft is unwilling to mend its CSS support because thousands of sites relying on IE's proprietary models would suddenly break. There's certainly a lot of truth in this statement and I should have mentioned it.

I mainly focused on the recent WaSP Call, though. All WaSP's suggestions would be new additions to Explorer. It doesn't yet support these CSS selectors and declarations at al, broken or otherwisel. So the argument doesn't hold for these specific problems: they could be implemented without danger of breakage.

So I'm currently feeling that both theories are true: Explorer cannot be updated, and strict CSS support is unlikely to be implemented because countless sites would break.

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Who's going to win? Not me.

Submitted by sbhikes on July 15, 2003 - 12:21.

Camino is crashy. I can barely use it. And it's slow for me. (Everything is slow on Mac compared to the Windows machine I use at work.) I love Safari. I installed it, it became my default automatically, and I didn't try to put my previous default back. It's fast, and oddly, I like the brushed metal interface.

It would be really nice to care about css/html standards and do all my coding "correctly", but it's a nearly hopeless task as long as nearly 3/4 of my web site visitors are using IE6 and a surprisingly high 1.5% of my visitors are still on Netscape 3! Face it, we only want standards compliant browsers to make our jobs easier. The people of the world only want good web content and couldn't care less how pefectly it was assembled. Browser makers come in two flavors: standards-shmandards profiteers and saintly standards-compliant volunteers. Who's going to win?

I'm left feeling so conflicted. I want to do the right thing with my code. But I can't as long as this problem persists. My only strategy so far has been to keep it simple. *sigh* It's browser hell forever.

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Ignorance is bliss

Submitted by hyphen on July 15, 2003 - 23:41.

The author seems to be incredibly ignorant about Opera's merits. Opera has not only proved to be in extremely healthy state with huge advances in technology in the past 12 months, but it has been leading (yes, leading!) all other browsers with its truly innovative features.

Those who say they don't like it because of the ads are extremely narrow minded. Why don't you just buy the thing, rather than unrealistically discredit the browser?

It's not open source, but seriously, who cares? It's made by a good-natured company that's actually staying alive.

Those who say it's not good because it has three competitors are just too lazy to admit the facts.

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All change at Mozilla.org

Submitted by Xanadu on July 16, 2003 - 00:44.

Well events are moving fast over at Mozilla.org. We now have the Mozilla Foundation, funded by AOL, Sun, Red Hat and others. AOL have apparently dropped Netscape altogether and sacked the related staff. There is a press release on the new look Mozilla website which is well worth reading.

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Well well well

Submitted by ppk on July 16, 2003 - 01:12.

What a nice surprise. The Project is actually getting its act together! Finally something I can wholeheartedly applaud.

They even have a section devoted to the end user. In my opinion it still contains too much tech talk, but when compared to the old site it's so much better.

Thanks for the tip.

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Netscape dead

Submitted by ppk on July 16, 2003 - 03:22.

For the record: Netscape is dead, too. I think that's a good thing since having two browser brands, "Netscape" and "Mozilla", compete for the same role would be bad.

I wanted to add a warning about the "Netscape" name to the original article, but scrapped it because the article was already so long. The argument was roughly supposed to be that the name "Netscape" will be increasingly associated with bad browsing because of the comparision IE6 = NN4. Therefore a continuation of this name would only weaken the story in the long run.

Mozilla will grow stronger because of this. Good. It's already shaping up nicely for the role I'd like it to play.

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Why standards-compliant browsers?

Submitted by chickenbird on July 16, 2003 - 06:17.

Camino is crashy. I can barely use it. And it's slow for me. (Everything is slow on Mac compared to the Windows machine I use at work.) (sbhikes) Can I ask what PPC processor you are using (e.g. a G3, G4, etc), what OS (OS X 10.x.x) and how much RAM you have? Because I've used Camino on a number of G3 and G4 machines running OS 10.2.x and it hardly ever crashes and is nice and fast. So are my other applications, faster than the Windows XP machine I use, which has a slower processor. That is, the age of your respective hardware has an impact. Face it, we only want standards compliant browsers to make our jobs easier. The people of the world only want good web content and couldn't care less how pefectly it was assembled. (sbhikes) That is not why I want standards-compliant browsers. I want them because without them, I cannot produce anything at all for my clients. Their needs center around having a browser that actually does XML and CSS correctly. It is easy enough for the client to download and install the free, standards-compliant Mozilla. These are my specific clients and data sets. "The people of the world" is a gross generalization and does not apply to ever project and dataset by any stretch of the imagination. Many, many people do in fact care about how things are done and that they are done well in a way that works, instead of in a shoddy way that only works in non-standards-compliant browsers.

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for ppk

Submitted by Xanadu on July 16, 2003 - 06:35.

Ppk might want to take a look at the Web Standards Project who say this about the article above:

"Koch gets a couple things wrong, though. He says Microsoft may have no choice but to discontinue upgrades for the standalone IE/Win: its Trident rendering engine may be so heavily patched that further improvements are impossible. Maybe, but Microsoft has an outstanding alternative in the form of the Tasman engine that powers IE Mac and is already being moved to other platforms. Second, Koch says IE Mac is dead. It isn't. The free version of IE Mac is dead. A new version of the- browser-formerly-known-as-IE-Mac is available (for a monthly fee) as MSN for Macintosh."

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Re: for ppk

Submitted by ppk on July 16, 2003 - 06:43.

Yes, Chris mailed me about it. Comments:

  1. Re Tasman for Windows: I didn't know it was being ported. Nonetheless, I don't believe I actually got anything wrong. Trident has to be replaced by something else, even though it's not a code engine written from scratch.
  2. Re death of IE Mac: True, it'll become an MSN Explorer. Nonetheless this doesn't have to clash with the story. Explorer Mac will still be replaced by Safari as the default Mac browser, so the story I told still holds true.

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Why do you want a new browser?

Submitted by mulp on July 16, 2003 - 11:14.

It's seems to me that Mr Koch is trying to determine the next browser for the web designer, handicapped by the ugly fact that the users are the ones who chose the browser.

In other words, the problem is that, as a web site designer, he wants to be able to force his "experience" on the user and its clear that Microsoft is delaying and limiting his ability to force his "experience" on the user.

Microsoft is the perfect partner for someone with that attitude because Microsoft lives to force its "experience" on users, and it has profitted heavily from it. (If there are 1 billion Windows PCs in the world, Microsoft has $50 cash in the bank from each one.)

Mr. Koch also ignores the matters of security that are critical in any system that has the "dynamics" that some developers crave. If you have 10 features, there are roughly one hundred ways for them to interact; with 1000 features, there are easily thousands of critical interactions to worry about out of the hundreds of thousand theorectical interactions. In a world with hundreds of thousands of terrorist hackers, the odds are against a single product - the terrorists will win. And this has been the case with Internet Exploiter. Personally I've disabled every thing "active" in IE and what I find is that IE will work on sites where just about any browser will do, but fails on many sites where most alternatives work fine. Sometimes the web site complains: YOU HAVE NOT ENABLED THE FEATURES I NEED TO INFEST YOUR COMPUTER WITH A VIRUS!!!: - well, actually they don't say that, but that's how I read it.

Ah, security is another matter, I'm sure that Mr. Koch will reply. That's Microsoft's responsibility in Windows and besides, everyone should be running virus protection software. Gee, users and nearly all corporations pay for virus protection. So why is it that Opera is a non-starter when it provides some added measure of security at a nominal cost.

In fact, I would argue that Opera provides a significant margin of security. I suspect that many security problems in IE are due to two interacting mis-features. If there are multiple browsers in the market place, the chance that even two of them will have the same combination of misfeatures is low (if they are independent code bases). The efforts of hacker-terrorists will be diluted, and at worst will affect a small portion of the user base, when they find holes.

Popups are another very annoying feature that web site designers seem to think they must use, regardless of the feelings of the user. I use, and pay for, two products to limit the disruption and damage from popups. Ask users about popups and I'd be surprised if 1% were ok with them. And many users pay for software to get rid of them. And so do many corporations. So, to dismiss Opera because you have to pay for a version without ads seems to be nonsensical.

Finally, the author also fails to admit that Windows is used because Microsoft has done a good job making sure that Windows is the platform that developers develop for. No one develops for Windows because Windows is better - they develop for Windows because it dominates the market. The threat of the Internet, and more specifically HTTP/HTML, to Microsoft was that this would allow users to accomplish much of what they wanted to do without using Microsoft products.

Do you want Microsoft to "fix" Internet Exploiter. Well, start a campaign to have all web developer use pure, absolute standard, web code. For the browsers that don't support the "pure" standard, everyone would fallback to plain old HTML V3 or something like that. Don't test with browsers, just test the generated code to be sure that its standard. Then have a standards compliance organization certify a list of standard compliant browsers. Maintain that list in the webserver to determine what code gets sent to the browser. Since you consider Internet Exploiter V6 to be seriously broken, it would get the plain old code. Include a link to the browsers that are standard compliant. Microsoft WILL RESPOND. No doubt they will attack you, any organization that tries to implement such a system, but if you persist, they will fix their code.

Whether you realize it or not, you're adopting the attitude that the only way to get what you want is to have a big corporation stage an assault on the users. Well, the users are satisfied with the PC status quo and have many more pursuits, whether cell phones, PDAs, cars, SUVs, DVDs, MP3 players, online gaming. ... There is no way that Microsoft is going to force the users to do anything, and its unlikely that anyone will repllicat the anything like the "PC revolution".

Well, I've gone off on a diatribe, but frankly the whole business of "improving the user experience" with the W3C alphabet soup justs reminds me of the web sites that that hours to download that are completely content free. The attraction of the web to me is the ability to easily access content around the world - that was its day 1 attraction and still is. I couldn't care less about moives or sound or games or flashing lights, although I will admit that pictures are nice as long as they load within a reasonable amount of time. And I don't think I'm alone - how many times does someone send you a link with the message - "wow look at this cool web design"? The only ones I send and receive read like "did you know...?" or "here's some useful info...?" followed by a link,

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My Mac

Submitted by sbhikes on July 16, 2003 - 19:17.

[quote author="chickenbird"] Can I ask what PPC processor you are using (e.g. a G3, G4, etc), what OS (OS X 10.x.x) and how much RAM you have?[/quote]

I have an iBook, 500mhz, G3, 640MB RAM OS 10.2.6. A lot of apps are crashy. Flash is the worst. But I finally found the source of some of my woes, which is a corrupted font.

[quote author="mulp"]The attraction of the web to me is the ability to easily access content around the world [/quote]

I agree. Content is why people like my web site, boring design that it is.

I like the idea that mulp has to just design to the standards and the browser makers will be forced to adapt. That would be nice except that it is not possible. I work in a sofware company and the truth of the matter is that I design for the project manager, the CTO and the CEO. If those folks are ignorant and stupid, then well...Basically, if they refuse to change their browser and the site is broken, I don't have a job anymore!

I like the philosophy and want to follow it. But which browser is the perfect one? How do I know my standards compliant code is really correct if I can't see standards compliant results in my standards compliant-challenged browsers? Do I have to buy a Wintel computer to get a standards complaint browser? Can I design for Safari? I like Safari. I want to start using more standards compliant and modern code. I'm just so surpised that so many of my visitors still use Netscape 3. But who cares. I'm going to do it. Thanks for your rant, mulp.

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Re: Why do you want a new browser?

Submitted by MartinB on July 16, 2003 - 23:49.

Mulp wrote

Popups are another very annoying feature that web site designers seem to think they must use,

In my experience, it's rarely the designers who ask for this... clients, yes, but rarely the designers.

Do you want Microsoft to fix Internet Exploiter. Well, start a campaign to have all web developer use pure, absolute standard, web code. For the browsers that don't support the "pure" standard, everyone would fallback to plain old HTML V3 or something like that. Don't test with browsers, just test the generated code to be sure that its standard. Then have a standards compliance organization certify a list of standard compliant browsers. Maintain that list in the webserver to determine what code gets sent to the browser. Since you consider Internet Exploiter V6 to be seriously broken, it would get the plain old code. Include a link to the browsers that are standard compliant.

Psst, WASP have been doing this for years.

Microsoft WILL RESPOND. No doubt they will attack you, any organization that tries to implement such a system, but if you persist, they will fix their code.

Strange, but it's not really been happening to the level you predict.

The whole business of "improving the user experience" with the W3C alphabet soup justs reminds me of the web sites that that hours to download that are completely content free. The attraction of the web to me is the ability to easily access content around the world - that was its day 1 attraction and still is. I couldn't care less about moives or sound or games or flashing lights, although I will admit that pictures are nice as long as they load within a reasonable amount of time.

Sigh. That's the one of the points of standards compliance. Making it easier and faster to access content. Please try to keep up.

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popups

Submitted by Xanadu on July 17, 2003 - 00:26.

Mulp wrote:
Popups are another very annoying feature that web site designers seem to think they must use, regardless of the feelings of the user. I use, and pay for, two products to limit the disruption and damage from popups.

Why not just download Mozilla for free? Or MyIE2 which bans pop-ups from IE.

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Opera Stands to Benefit

Submitted by billc on July 17, 2003 - 02:55.

As I see it, only Opera remains strongly as a "second" choice (even though I use firebird). It has some necessary criteria to make it a worth installing a second browser on any operating system. It now has: 1. Clear position as "#2" (not in numbers, more as choice for a second browser): Linux-Gecko, Apple-Safari, Windows-IE. Each already has a primary browser installed, and there is no "netscape" to install now. 2. Opera is a preferred download, because it is only 4 meg for a complete suite. Phoenix is 6-8 for browser only, Moz is 13meg. 3. Opera 7 is as CSS compliant as Moz 4. It has placed itself as a "quicker" browser. Everybody wants to surf faster, no matter what connection they have. Safari and IE rule on their operating systems now. Moz on Opera are left to battle it out. Opera 7 offers more than Moz browsers, in a smaller (quicker?) package, that can still be had for free. I am certain that this leaves Opera with a new chance for increase.

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Tasman NOT ported to Windows

Submitted by ppk on July 17, 2003 - 03:52.

The rumour about Tasman (IE Mac's former code engine) being ported to Windows is definitely false. What seems to be true, according to sources within WaSP, is that Tasman may be ported to PDA OSses.

For any PDA, things have to be removed from Tasman since the code engine should be small. For Windows, though, a lot should be added, for instance VBScript. Frankly I don't see that happening.

My theory remains that IE Windows' code engine will have to be entirely rewritten.

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Perspective

Submitted by Xanadu on July 18, 2003 - 04:34.

While I dread the amount of future bugs that will inevitably be hidden in a rewritten browser (especially on its first release) Microsoft are only taking the same step Netscape did in abandoning version 4 and starting work on what we now call Gecko. Assuming there are bugs in IE7, how long will it be before they are all ironed out? My guess is at least 5 years. You only have to wade through Bugzilla to see how complex a modern browser is, how many combinations of CSS and plug-ins like Flash and Java you can have. And I don't see Microsoft being as thorough in fixing their bugs, since they simply don't have a public bug-tracking system to report them! You have to hope the programmers fix them over time. Or in the case of IE6, wait for a whole new browser to be written...

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Firebird as IE competition

Submitted by tfountain on July 18, 2003 - 05:13.

It's still a good vs. evil battle as far as I'm concerned, and the "good" is now Firebird. Mozilla was never meant for end users. It's more of a developer's browser, and all its features do come at a price - bloat. Put it side by side with IE 6 even doing something as basic as opening a new window and IE wins hands down. Enter Firebird. I was very happy when the focus of the project switched to Firebird, as Firebird *was* designed to eventually be an end-user browser, and it only needs a bit more polishing (e.g. a decent non-third party installer) to get it there. I just hope the Mozilla project has enough momentum to take it to this state.

As someone else has said, users *are* interested in browsers, but in features that help their browsing experience, not things like standards compliance which they don't understand why they should care about. In my experience normal users accept things like pop-ups as something you have to live with on the Web. Show them that they don't have to and you've sparked their interest. Tabbed browsing and things like mouse gestures are more of an acquired taste, but as people use the Web more these browser "extras" will become more important.

IE 6 has some nasty CSS bugs, but because the browser is so dominant developers work around them and so you don't see evidence of them in the sites we have today. This is why browser dominance is a bad thing - Microsoft have no reason to fix these things as as far as the user base is concerned they don't exist. MS could quite easily crush the competition right now by releasing an IE update with these fixes (to win over the developers) and with some new user oriented features such as pop-up blocking built in. I know these features are all available as third party extensions but that doesn't count, Joe Average doesn't go looking for these things, he uses a default install with all the default options.

Opera has always been more of a niche browser, and I think in the longer term its uses in embedded devices will be a better way to win back some of the market share. When we're browsing the Web of the future on our computer, TV and fridge; I can't see us using IE on all three. Safari on the Mac has promise, but (no offence to Mac users), the Mac doesn't have enough market share for that to make a difference.

So I'm hoping this gap until IE 7 comes along will allow Firebird to get a look-in.

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Firebird is a good secondary backup browser.

Submitted by hyphen on July 18, 2003 - 17:20.

Opera has always been more of a niche browser
And so I keep hearing in this article/thread. But where's the argument for this statement? Opera is obviously much more feature packed than IE, Safari, Firebird and maybe Mozilla. How can such a dominance give it only a backup role?

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Rich Apps

Submitted by jackk100 on July 20, 2003 - 09:46.

I skimmed all the feedback at the bottom of it, but was surprised to find that no one mentioned what I think is probably a fundamental reason why the next IE requires closer ties to the MS OS..... because despite all the standards, writing applications (as opposed to hypertext pages) just plain sucks in any browser.

My guess is that MS is going to marry .NET, Windows Forms, and as many standards as they have to, together with an IDE (probably just new release of VisualStudio.NET), which will give developers new reason to want to develop using their offering. Much in the same way Macromedia is adding "VB-like" application dev capabilities to their product (firefly, continuing series of UI controls and pre-built components, IDE changes, etc). For Macromedia it's FlashMX "RIA" (Rich Internet Applications) and offerings like Central, which divorce internet apps from crusty old browsers. The potential there is huge. My guess is that's what MS is targeting, and why they don't want to waste time on improving/changing their "legacy" IE 6 now.

My take is that products like iRider.com will come along and add nice shells to embeddable browsers like IE and Gecko, but that fundamental change of the browsers themselves will be geared toward application (not hypertext) developers, who will then build things that make user's lives easier. Perhaps this is prime time for a Java "browser" (and maybe that could be the real next contender), but I think it would have to heavily incorporate an "RIA" and "not a browser" (ie, Macromedia Central) philosophy, cuz that's what the next big wars will be about (he said).

MS has the upper hand there as long as it has 90% market saturation for it's OS and isn't required to include Java on it's platform. Java is just one more thing to download, and most typical Win users don't really give a rats a** if the browser runs on other OS'es, they just want the thing that they want (are convinced they want, through real, good things or hype), so a Java based RIA "browser" and supporting class libraries and IDE would always have that extra hurdle.

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