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SEO For The Big Three

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Dave Davies

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User since: October 10, 2004

Last login: January 07, 2008

Articles written: 5

SEO For The Big Three

Ranking your website highly on one of the “big three” search engines (Google, Yahoo or MSN) is a daunting task let alone ranking your website highly on all three. Three engines, three algorithms, three different sets of rules - and yet there are websites out there that have first page rankings across them all – how do they do it?

While all of the major search engines use different algorithms the end goal of all three is the same: to provide the searcher with the most relevant results available. It is this one common thread that makes it possible for an SEO to rank a website highly across all the major engines. While there are a variety of factors at play and an even wider variation in the weight each of these factors are given – the possible variations that can produce relevant results are limited.

For example, if inbound links are given 0% weight then insignificant sites will rank highly for high-competition phrases. Many reputable companies such as Microsoft could lose rankings for their own names so links must and will always hold value. On the other hand, if links were to hold 100% weight then sp@mming the search engines would be a simple matter and so there are a limited number of possible variables in between these extremes that this factor can have, no matter which engine we are optimizing for.

That said, there are still three main engines with three distinct algorithms despite common requirements. To clarify how to optimize for all of them it's easiest to discuss them individually first. Due to the way their algorithms work one is best to expect rankings on MSN first, followed by Yahoo! and finally Google (I am assuming that the phrase is of at least moderate competition). For this reason we will discuss them individually in that order.

SEO For MSN

Proper SEO for MSN requires that a site be structured well with a distinct theme throughout and many inbound links. The advantage an SEO has while optimizing a site for MSN is that MSN tends to pick up and credit new content and inbound links very quickly. That means that with the right tactics in place one can rank a website relatively quickly on this important engine.

While MSN has the lowest number of searches performed on it, ComScore's report back in July revealed that MSN searchers were also 48% more likely to purchase a product or service online than the average Internet user. A very important statistic for website owners that sell online.

To rank highly on MSN one needs to build a solid sized site (exactly how large will depend on your industry – look at the size of your competitor's sites for an idea), a relevant theme throughout the site that focuses on your primary keywords and a good number of links. MSN doesn't (at this time) employ an aging delay on links such as the one employed by both Google and Yahoo! so the effects of the site and inbound links can be picked up very quickly and with good SEO efforts one can rank well within a few months on MSN for competitive phrases.

SEO For Yahoo!

Until recently Yahoo! acted very much like MSN, now it's leaning a bit more towards Google. Ranking a website well on Yahoo! requires a solid-sized site with unique content and a very good number of links.

While PageRank is a Google factor, Yahoo! does have some type of page value factor at play. Many moons ago Yahoo! was playing with a PageRank-like calculation called WebRank. They even went so far as to put out a beta toolbar testing it. This indicates that there is a factor at play in the Yahoo! algorithm similar to Google's PageRank – they just don't advertise what a specific page's value is.

Yahoo! is placing a large amount of emphasis on the age of links though not in the same way that Google is. We will get to Google shortly however to understand what to expect from Yahoo! one must understand that when you get a link to your website it won't hold it's full value for a number of months. While the exact number of months in unknown it appears to be around 8 before it hold it's full weight though it will hold some from day one and this weight will increase as time passes.

To rank well on Yahoo! you much optimize your site similar to what you would do for MSN and you must build a large number of inbound links and have patience as these links age. You will not see a sudden spike 2 weeks after a large link-building campaign, you will likely have to wait 3-4 months to notice any significant effect.

SEO For Google

Virtually every webmaster and website owner is primarily concerned about attaining Google rankings due to the significantly higher number of searchers using it. Provided that you are building your website following the best practices of SEO (i.e. unique content, a sizable amount of content, and a good number of incoming links) then your rankings are sure to follow, however due to their aging delay it will likely take longer than on MSN or Yahoo! Google considers the age of your links, your domain and even the individual page to be a factor and the longer your page has been online the better.

Essentially, ranking a site on Google requires that you take the same actions as for the other two, continue your link building efforts on an ongoing basis to insure that you end up with more-and-more links, and that you update your content and add content on a fairly regular basis (though the addition of a blog for example).

Tying It Together

The logical process for a new website or one at the first stages of SEO is to first target MSN. At this point you can focus your attention on continuing to build high-quality, relevant links to and content on your site which will continue to increase your value on Yahoo! and Google.

Analysis will be required to determine exactly what weight you will be giving to different areas. For example, if your onsite factors are optimized for MSN then you know that you will need to make up for this in the offsite factors for Yahoo! and Google. If you figured you would need 100 links to rank on Google then you will now need to up that number to account for the fact that you have optimized your site itself for a different engine.

During the analysis process you will likely want to use a tool to speed up the process of keyword density analysis and competitor link analysis. At Beanstalk we use a tool called Total Optimizer Pro though there are others out there (note: I have yet to find one that does what this one does as quickly and easily).

Conclusion

I am hoping that none of you read the title and were expecting to rank on the first page of all three major engines next week. Ranking highly on all three major engines takes time, patience and a good few rounds of tweaking to get the perfect balance of onsite and offsite optimization. Of course, as you can gather, done properly it's well worth the effort.

About The Author

Dave Davies is the CEO of Beanstalk Search Engine Positioning, Inc. Dave writes with years of expreience in SEO and optimization tactics. Watch Beanstalk's SEO news blog for details on the publication of a 4-part series on ranking your website highly accross the "big three engines" in January of 2006. Dave would like to thank TopNet Solutions for the development of Total Optimizer Pro - a comprehensive SEO tool that provides a blueprint of how the top 10 got there so you can too.
Dave Davies is the owner of Beanstalk Search Engine Positioning. He has been optimizing and ranking websites for over three years and has a solid history of success. Dave is available to answer any questions that you may have about your website and how to get it into the top positions on the major search engines.

pagerank importance?

Submitted by mingala on June 4, 2006 - 20:03.

what are your feelings on google pagerank importance? One of my sites recently went to Pagerank 0 and I'm not sure why. I still come up in google listings so I haven't been removed from the index. According to my reseach, some feel pagerank is relevant while others don't put much stock in it. ******************* http://pollenation.com too busy to update my site which is a good thang

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Great overview

Submitted by cianuro on November 22, 2006 - 13:59.

First of all, you mention "...expect rankings on MSN first, followed by Yahoo! and finally Google" I think this a good observation. MSN (or live.com) index the fastest assuming at least a small number of backlinks exist.

"To rank highly on MSN one needs to build a solid sized site " I disagree with this comment as I have ranked one and two page sites on the same keywords as a competitor with over 1000 pages indexed.

"...it appears to be around 8 before it hold it's full weight". I agree with that. Most of our search engine marketing contracts are between 6-12 months as a result of that.

"...Ranking highly on all three major engines takes time, patience and a good few rounds of tweaking to get the perfect balance of onsite and offsite optimization" Spot on. This is something many "Search Engine Optimization" companies either do not know, or fail to educate their clients about.

I think it is good practice, and is mine, to optimize for Google first. The rest seem to follow along, or hit the desired position long before Google. If not, then you can do the individual tweaks for MSN and Yahoo!

Overall, A great article. And our names are almost identical. :) Regards Dave Davis Search Engine Optimization Ireland

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Optimize for Google first!

Submitted by kraig55 on December 27, 2006 - 18:29.

I've analyzed logs for my fonts site and got some interesting results:

  • 87% visits from Google
  • 8% from MSN
  • 3% from Yahoo
  • 2% from other search engines

But the site is optimized for MSN and Yahoo better than for Google. So I agree with Dave Davis (cianuro) - you should optimize for Google first.

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Same here. Even worse.

Submitted by Peter82 on January 9, 2007 - 17:54.

Same here. Even worse.
  • 92% from Google
  • 6% from Yahoo
  • 1% from MSN
  • 1% from other
Somehow Google loves me, Yahoo is doing well and MSN hates me. They really hate my site. Place 46 for a keyword ranked #1 in Google. Well, I can live with that. :-) However, It's really hard to get #1 in all the big three. And, by the way, to get great positions in Yahoo you should have a really old site.

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SE that show results faster could be less descriminatory

Submitted by Brad Henry on January 19, 2007 - 18:46.

Traditionally in the SEO community we have seen MSN show the impacts of adjustments first. I don't think it's because they have more crawlers or bots but because Google is more discriminatory about allowing SEO adjustments to have quick impact. Google being the best at supplying the most relevant results also is last for SEO adjustments to be impactful. If all you had to do was change some Meta Titles and gain positioning in Google a week later it would be too easy and you would end up with results like MSN or even worse like Yahoo's.
Thanks,
Brad Henry

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In the Netherlands it is

Submitted by Vakantie on January 26, 2007 - 20:45.

In the Netherlands it is even worse:
  • 96% from Google
  • 0.5% from Yahoo
  • 1% from MSN
  • 2.5% from other
I only hope this will change soon a bit, this way google is building to strong monopoly. Vakantie

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hungary

Submitted by linkfelho on February 5, 2007 - 23:48.

In my linkfelhő page in Hungary: 97% from Google 0.5% from Yahoo 1.5% from MSN 1% from other

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The oldest Dutch SE

Submitted by vakantieboeken on February 8, 2007 - 14:31.

Although Google has a 96 % share at this moment in the Netherlands, the oldest Dutch search engine, Ilse, was not so long ago the top leader in this country. Ilse launched in 1996, and it worked it's way to the top. In 2002 it had a 66% market share in the Netherlands, but then.. *BOOM*.. Google came and Ilse couldn't compete against the brute force of the big G. In 2004 - just 2 years after Ilse had 66 % of the market - Ilse had only 5 % left.. 66 % to 5 % in just 2 years!! Perhaps this isn't that helpfull for this post, but I couldn't resist posting this, because it gives an indication of the brute force of Google. vakantie

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Spain differs a little bit

Submitted by porta on February 8, 2007 - 18:37.

In comparision to kraig55 and Peter82 I see here in Spain something different in the log files for our majorca property site. In Spain it's:
  • 70% visits from Google
  • 15% visits from Yahoo
  • 12% visits from MSN
  • 3% visits from other search engines
The site ranked well in MSN and Yahoo. In Google the site is on the way, but seems to stop on the second site.
In Germany the results are much more like your results ( Google 93 %) I agree to Dave Davis (cianuro) to look on Google first and the rest seems to follow. Regards Gabriel

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Google in China

Submitted by vakantieboeken on February 12, 2007 - 00:11.

And then compare it with China! In china google has just around 10 % or so, the most people use their own chinese search engine, because Google's algorithm is just not build for the Chineze language! To bad, but that's how it is.. vakantie

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... just wait!

Submitted by Thiez on February 13, 2007 - 19:37.

I think it's only a matter of time before Google will become a giant in China like in other countries.. The possibilities and potential are just too big! I bet that within two years Google will become really big in China, especially now they're making friends with the government (concerning search filters and stuff).

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Holland

Submitted by moesjly on February 19, 2007 - 13:24.

Clearly the downside is, that when you drop down the Google index. The number of visitors will also dramatically drop

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China Google

Submitted by vakantiesites on February 25, 2007 - 21:47.

In China Google has a very big opponent: Baidu (50%+). This is a search engine which is based on hand selected listing not like Google. Google is having much difficulty competing against Baidu because of the nature of the Chinese language and the difficulties is has selecting listing based on algorithm. I don’t think it will be likely that Google will become a giant in China soon because of this. Also in other large countries like Russia, Google is not even a 10% player YET. vakantie

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only Google for me

Submitted by Zelan on March 11, 2007 - 10:41.

I always notice that my sites are scoring first in MSN. But as soon as they get picked up by Google, the traffic I get from other search engines is just too low to even bother. So optimizing for other SE is just a waist of time for me. Just sticking to good ol' Google and hoping they will keep their monopoly for some time :) -out Zelan

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Zelan, that is a very

Submitted by cianuro on March 12, 2007 - 18:03.

Zelan, that is a very misguided and dangerous view. What if you suffered a penalty in Google and were removed from the SERPs? Have you done any conversion measurements? Do you know well MSN traffic converts compared to Yahoo or Google? Over 90% of my campaigns convert better with MSN and Yahoo traffic. That is a fact. More traffic doesn't mean better traffic. At the end of the day, it's costing you bandwidth.

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Google is the way to go

Submitted by AxelF on March 14, 2007 - 09:36.

I my opininion is SEO for any other search engine then Google a waste of time. The traffic for my projects comes to 99% from Google. MS is loosing its market share and Yahoo is not really growing. So why care? Just my opininion... Regards Axel

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Google Shut Down

Submitted by topboy on March 14, 2007 - 16:20.

I have read about an article on google being in trouble with its shares from the us, that google wont hand over its documents of statistics to the fbi for example search phrases and links and this could shut them down. Im not sure if its a myth but if anyone knows anything about it be my guest! Stephen Bray - Web Design Ireland - TopHatSolutions

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Hallo,sorry my english is

Submitted by udo1601 on March 16, 2007 - 07:12.

Hallo, sorry my english is not so good ! I have 6 Domains within Pagerankscripts ! Can someone help me with one Site ?? The PHP Script has an Error !! It is the site www.fun-ranking.de, if someone activate the mail, the domain shows, he is always registert ! Whats wrong ?? Sorry if this comment is in the wrong site ! Please mail me if you see the error on my site ! Thanks a lot ! Best regards Udo

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Search in the East

Submitted by porta on March 30, 2007 - 11:26.

In Addition to our Spain experience mentioned a few weeks ago here are some statists from the "east". In Russia and Ukraine Google isn`t the Nr.1. Here are yandex and rambler the major search engines (70%). In Poland Google is something like 83%. Best regards Gabriel aka Porta

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Google is very effectively

Submitted by Heironymous on March 31, 2007 - 02:14.

SEO techniques are a thing of the past. Google is very effectively squeezing out sites that depend only on optimization techniques alone. The bottom line is that you need to have unique content, a good mix of keywords and good quality links coming in. I am personally seeing the following mix of SE traffic to my Washington DC Photography site:
Google Search: 62%
Google Images: 21%
Yahoo: 12%
AOL: 1.8%
MSN: 0.9%

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new way

Submitted by InsideBlog on April 2, 2007 - 09:17.

well written article. i like your thoughts about first optimize for MSN. the most SEO´s just say first optimize for Google, the rest will follow. i think MSN is gonna be more and more important, one reason is the fully integration of live-search in windows vista. many people are lazy and just use what they get (vista -> live-search) and so i think that will cost Google a part of the market. we will see whats happen. excellent informations. keep on the good work! Dan

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good addition

Submitted by EngrTun on April 10, 2007 - 04:11.

Another drop added to my SEO knowledge. I always find and read SEO related articles, nice read indeed. Bookmarked.

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SEO for Live.com

Submitted by Gourmantis on April 12, 2007 - 23:20.

I find increasing traffic from Live.com SERPS. But I do not have any idea about SEO for Live.com. Are there any experiences out there or good links that introduce SEO for Live.com? Thanks from Feinkost

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I had never thought about

Submitted by tnk on April 27, 2007 - 20:56.

I had never thought about MSN SEO till i read this. I am still more leaning towards google. However past few months I noticed that google cannot show all the backlinks of a website like Yahoo. Not sure if this in intentional. Also google search results for Indian domains dont show up even if the site is PR4-6 and appears in top 10 in Yahoo.

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Google is the only engine

Submitted by kahuki on May 4, 2007 - 21:32.

Google is the only engine that is worth investing time in optimization. I have dozens of top 10 rankings in Yahoo and live for my price comparison site, that do not bring me any visitors!

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forgetting the big 3

Submitted by 24601 on May 6, 2007 - 21:32.

hmm.. kind of agree with above comment - I am only worried about getting to #1 on G.. seems to be where most traffic is generated.

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As always, it depends

Submitted by Marcel Feenstra on June 4, 2007 - 09:32.

I do not find it very useful to make sweeping statements about this topic. It is true that Google has a larger market share than Yahoo and MSN in most places; in fact, in some countries (like The Netherlands), Google almost has a monopoly.

However, that is not the entire story. If you have an e-commerce site, another factor you should take into account is the probability that your visitors will convert into buyers. As the author of the original article pointed out, that probability seems to be much higher for MSN users than it is for Google users. (Perhaps the latter group is more information-oriented than transaction-oriented?)

Also, some sites "naturally" seem to do better in Yahoo and MSN than in Google; for example, sites that have only just been launched typically find it very hard to rank well in Google, while they can achieve decent results in the other search engines.

Wise webmasters would do well, therefore, to consider all relevant factors pertaining to their sites, and not just the relative market share of "the big three"...

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Google vs, Yahoo, MSN

Submitted by Heironymous on June 25, 2007 - 03:13.

"that probability seems to be much higher for MSN users than it is for Google users."...Most of the metric services out there seem more than a bit skewed, and I don't believe for a second that MSN's traffic converts to sales at a higher rate than Google. I also don't believe that Yahoo has 30% market share for search as some metric services suggest. The concensus amongst most webmasters seems to be that Yahoo brings in around 15-20% max. For my fine art photography site it's hovering around 18% now, and the intro of Panama hasn't changed a thing. One look at MSN's results these days should tell anyone that their search algo is a basket case. It's all very very subjective ---Andrew

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Another experience i'd like

Submitted by phpro on July 2, 2007 - 21:46.

Another experience i'd like to share. Some of the keywords, for example which have more chances to be searched by kids send more traffic via MSN than Google. I have been ranked on 1st page for a keyword on both MSN and Google. MSN was sending like 700+ hits a day and Google 20-30. Keywords was searched by kids mostly. So age group and professiona matters which search engine you use. Webmasters are more likely to use Google than any other. IMO.

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